Saturday, December 28, 2019

A Facebook Debate between George Jensen and Me

Gang, 

More than a week ago now, Enola First Church of God clergyman, George Jensen, entered a timely and provocative post on Facebook. Among many others, I replied and a spirited exchange ensued between George and me. 

I often think that the best conversation I have, and the most perceptive writing I do, is off of this blog.

I emailed George and let him know that I plan to highlight our Facebook posts on my blog. He'd added his final comment while my email was on its way to him.

I see important CGGC and Western church realities at stake in the issue George raises.

George's post and our interaction is copied below.

As is often the case, the comments become increasingly lengthy. And, they are now more appropriate to blog comments than Facebook anyway. 

The last comment copied in is George's. 

I hope he'll continue the conversation...

...and, for that matter, I hope you will join in as well.

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George: the original Facebook post. 

So let me get this straight - Christianity Today publishes an article calling for Trump's removal from office claiming they were patient in revealing this information yet they conveniently wait until the day after the impeachment vote to let the cat out of the bag.  Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, who founded Christianity Today, rebukes the magazine's leadership for the article accusing them of leaning to the left and he reveals for the first time that his father voted for Trump.  Is anyone else out there, besides me, concerned that the evangelical Christian world appears to be going to war against itself over all of this?

And yes, I am concerned with both sides aiming their political guns at each other.  I wonder how this squibble-squabble is helping, from a human effort perspective, to advance the Kingdom and draw unbelievers to the one true faith in the Son of God (Yes, I know that is ultimately the Holy Spirit's job but we have been given our marching orders too)?  We as evangelicals are doing a great job at making the "faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" look like a kangaroo court.

Folks, I'm telling you that at the present moment, biblical, orthodox (small "o") evangelical Christianity is DYING in the west.  We cannot bury our heads in the sand about this.  We ARE dying!  Now to be sure, ultimately God's church is NOT going to die.  In fact, just the opposite is going to happen.  The promise from our Lord in Matthew 16:13-19 guarantees that one way or another, God is going to build His church.  But what WE need to do here and now is get busy and make these things a top priority:  #1  - EVANGELISM & DISCIPLESHIP, #2 - EVANGELISM & DISCIPLESHIP,  #3 - EVANGELISM & DISCIPLESHIP.  Anyone want to take a guess what #4 is?  You will notice that aiming our political guns at one another is not in the list so don't worry, it's not #4. So here it is, 5 days before Christmas, the day recognized by most Christians to commemorate the First Advent and Incarnation of our Lord, and we get all of THIS from the evangelical world.  What a MESS!  It sure isn't helping to make my job any easier!

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Me. George (and others),

Please understand that what follows is not necessarily rhetorical, though it may seem like it is.

George, it seems to me that you bring as much understanding of the history of the Kingdom to your ministry as anyone I know.

You know Church of God history.

You know, from the study of our history, that evangelism and discipleship and the aiming of political guns at others in the body, are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, in our greatest generation, when the Church of God was practicing evangelism and discipleship as it never has since, and expanding rapidly, that our body was fully engaged in the war church people were fighting against each other. Even, ultimately, engaging in a military war, the Civil War.

And, oddly, curiously perhaps, that squibble squabble empowered the expansion of the Kingdom of God in a way that is rare in the entire history of the Kingdom so much so that we normally refer to that time as a Great Awakening.

I, for one, am distressed by the conflict that is developing among brothers and sisters.

But, I'm not convinced that, in the end, it will prevent the expansion of the Kingdom.

I don't know what to think.

But, and especially for CGGC people, I ask: Are you forgetting our history?

Are you turning your backs on who we once were?

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George. I will cite a quote from One Who holds more weight, in my opinion, than CGGC history:  “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” - The words of Jesus in
‭‭John‬ ‭17:20-21.

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Me. It's Curious, George, that you chose to respond to my questions in the way you did.

I carefully framed my questions in reference to today's CGGC people's attitude toward the legacy the first members of our body left for us...in a day when we were practicing evangelism and discipleship and being profoundly blessed.

As I said, I know your ministry to be informed by a keen understanding of our history. So, you, for one, can't be forgetting that history.

Am I correct, then, that you are saying that you are turning your back on who we once were?

Is your quotation of John 17:20-21 intended to condemn John Winebrenner and his colleagues in our founding generation? If so, Yikes, brother!

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George. Is your accurate depiction of the CGGC’s historical evangelistic methods intended to take precedent over our Lord’s prayer where He prays for unity among believers so that the world may believe in Him?  If so, Yikes, brother!

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Me. George Jensen, you have a way of not answering the questions presented to you that rivals the most slippery politician's.  :-)

I was not describing the Church of God's evangelistic "method," only the historical context in which it took place.

As you know, in those days, Church of God people were passionate and fearless in everything they did, including and especially, their first principle, articulated by John Winebrenner on the day our body was formed, i.e., "the conversion of sinners."

Let me say clearly, though, that I see no conflict between the prayer of Jesus for unity among disciples and what our founders' did.

Are you saying that you do?!?!!!

The truth is that the unity experienced by the Father and Son was forged, at times, from unspeakable tension between them, so much so that, on the night when Jesus was betrayed, Jesus begged the Father, "Take this cup from me!" In that moment, the tension between them was so great that Jesus's sweat was as drops of blood.

You seem to forget that genuine unity is, often, fruit of worked through tension.

You seem to want the end product without acknowledging the hard work sometimes required to produce it.

I see no conflict at all  between our founders' passionate preaching of the gospel...and their struggle on behalf of the oppressed...and the prayer Jesus prayed.

I believe that our founders, unquestionably, had that prayer of Jesus in mind.

And, they were willing to pay their part of the price to achieve the unity among disciples Jesus prayed for. They didn't oppose it. In fact, some even died struggling to achieve it.

As the Word makes clear, even the unity between the Father and the Son involved moments when the angst and tension between them was horrendous.

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George. Fair enough, you did not declare what happened throughout CGGC history to be the Church of God's "historical method."

However, your accurate "descriptive" account of how God has moved among our body cannot be equated with his "prescriptive" initiatives that He calls us to embrace.  I believe that what Jesus pleaded for from the Father in John 17 was "prescriptive" - "that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

So the prescription is that we as believers are to be one so that the world may believe.  However, would even concede that God can work through this CT/Franklin Graham flap regarding Trump in a way that will cause growth in the Kingdom.

However, that does not mean that these two parties are acting according to God's "prescription" as it is recorded in John 17.

Any time we try to operate outside of God's "prescriptive" will, we are playing with fire!  And that fire can cause harm!  But sure, God can sovereignly move and grow His church in spite of our stupidity and disobedience to His "prescriptive" will.  And I must vigorously disagree with your notion regarding the tension within the Godhead.

You can argue, as you did, that unity in the Godhead is fruit of the worked through tension (as you noted from our Lord's Gethsemane prayer).  I can cautiously concede to that point.  But where your argument fails in regards to the comparison between what appears to be forged tension in the Godhead leading to unity and the CT/Graham flap is this:  There has never been and there will never be a case where one Person in the Godhead casts aspersions upon, devalues or speaks negatively against another.  I am convinced of this because of the words of our Lord in Matthew 12:31-32 - "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."  The CT/Graham flap is not a case of "forged tension leading to unity."

The two parties, directly or indirectly, are casting aspersions on each other (especially Graham as he aims his comments directly at CT).  For these reasons, I respectfully submit that your argument on this point does not hold up.

==============

(And this is where the exchange of Facebook posts ends. What follows is new.)

Me. 

George,

I'm still not certain that you've answered the question I raised in my first comment,  the second question, the one that applies to you, (At least, I hope you haven't.):

Are you turning your back on who we once were?

I'm trying very hard not to, well, accuse you of that, but, with each new post you write, it becomes harder not to raise that accusation.

When you say, "...when the description is different, such as in CGGC history, when there are bickerings, squibble-squabbles and all other kinds of divisions, God can work through that,..."

You seem to be saying that the Church of God was born in sin and that, in spite of the sin of John Winebrenner and his colleagues, God worked through the evil of our founders.

If that's the case, I have two concerns.

1. As much as I don't want to, I have wonder why you are a member of the CGGC.

We continue to embrace our roots.

We cling to the faith of our earliest brothers and sisters.

And, not so very long ago, in an eNews article, even Lance praised the practice of prophetic ministry of John Winebrenner and the people of our founding generation.

You, on the other hand, seem to see our founders as bickerers, squibble-squabblers and makers of all other kinds of divisions.

Can you tell me how you are not turning your back on who we once were?

2. In my opinion...speaking only for myself...it seems to me that you have a diluted understanding of unity.

The unity shared by the Father and the Son truly can't be separated from the prayer of Jesus begging the Father take that cup from Him. Their perfect unity can't be detached from the moment when the sweat of Jesus became like great drops of blood dropping to the ground.

Their unity with each other includes the moment when the Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness to meet satan.

It can't be separated from the moment when the unity between Father and Son drove Jesus into the temple, snapping a whip He made with His own hands, to remove the money-changers.

Their unity is perfect, yet it is also dynamic and fierce and passionate. The unity Jesus prayed for for us, I believe, must share those same qualities.

The unity being forged among Kingdom people in the first days of the Church of God shared those intense qualities.

And, as I pointed out, our movement has never engaged in evangelism and discipleship in the way it did in those days of fierce passion. We have never experienced God's blessing as we did then.

I may be wrong, but, based on your condemnation of the controversy taking place now connected to the CHRISTIANITY TODAY editorial...

...I fear that you may be confusing bland tolerance for unity. Please clarify and explain to me how I am wrong.

Certainly, there can be excess, i.e., sin, as humans seek to live out the dynamic, fierce  and passionate unity of the Father and the Son. I'm not excusing or defending that.

But tolerance among Kingdom people is, in my opinion, always sin.

Bottom line: I agree with your diagnosis that evangelical Christianity is dying but not with your prescription for its healing.

I'm sorry that this one is so lengthy.

Blessings.

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